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Arche Koeln

Sargatanas (Aether)

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5.31 Ishgard P3 / day 1 notes / expert craft

hiho hello,

After some fiddling, I've started on the next round of Ishgard hellgrind.
Currently averaging 30-35k pts/hr, varying according to sanity & caffeine levels.

Notable changes:
* This round feels a bit harder due to the 50 dura cap (instead of 60), which limits the effective window where green procs can be flexibly used. It feels like there's more under-used procs due to the viable window being halved, and tick clipping.

* While my overall craft throughput was good, in the 28-35 step range, the pts/craft felt lacking vs P2 as I wasn't entering the last bracket as often I felt. I'd ballpark 70% 8k+ (and most that broke 8k were max).

* Craft throughput maintained by saccing crafts more frequently (tradeoff $ for rank efficiency) and patient gambling to regain lost ground / create opportunity.

* Reflect feels quite awkward to use vs MMem this time, so I've swapped to MMem

* WN2 both highly inflexible in this reduced dura window and too restrictive in that cannot use prudent which is more cp efficient than green-proc'd WN2 + basic given even 1 interruption of WN2 to use procs/buffs.

+ Not required to land a buffed MMem/RS within 3 attempts
+ More flexible use of early procs (and early patient to 6 iq)
- need extra RS under ven
(less ideal due to cp efficiency - gaining IQ is cheaper than progress)
- slightly less quality/whack from less control.

* ven RS x3, bt, bt - min 2679 craft (control BiS)
* ven RS x3, bt - min 2758 craft (credit: Butta Stackz)

expect Reflect to increase in usefulness if there is a craft value where only 2 RS under ven would be required - but it seems too far away.

Muscle Memory:
+ Faster throughput
+ 1 less buffed RS required under ven
- craft likely sac'd if initial RS fails 3 times (tradeoff speed for cost - but mats are cheap)
- inefficient use of early procs due to prioritizing the initial RS

* ven RS x2, cs2 - 2687 craft - use FC buff II or swap 4 cmd -> 8 craft in boots or pants
* ven RS x2, bt - min 2710 craft - swap 1cp -> 14 craft in hat/chest/gloves 3x, or swap 2x and swap 4 cmd -> 8 craft in pants or boots.

I opted to do the 2x 1cp swap and trade 4 cmd out of boots as 1cp feels more valuable, hitting 2715/2923/658 under food/pot.

Depends on phase - phases broken up as:
* pre-1st RS succeeding
* pre-2nd RS
* pre-11 IQ
* post-11 IQ quality

general flow: MMem > Ven > RS x2 > Manip|IQ > quality start > IQ grind > quality grind > fish for red > end

pre-1st RS success
* no ToT until RS succeeds 1x
* 1 use of green proc on manip

post-1st RS, pre-2nd RS
* Manip on green if not up; else ignore
* ToT on red
* Alternatively, swap 2nd buffed RS for Intensive on red if 2715 craft+
(changing progress to look like: Mmem > ven - RS - intensive > intensive > bt)
only worthwhile if it pops under the initial window, bc RS is cheaper if you need to recast the buff anyways

50% of the time it'll look similar to this:

50% of the time you'll end up recasting ven:

15% of the time you'll fail the intial MMem

Manip 1st vs IQ 1st?
Near the start of P2 there was a post reporting procs recorded over ~10k craft.
I can't find it anymore...
Going off old notes, red recorded at 14%, green 12%.
Unable to cite this; treat as guess-work.

Given 12% estimated chance of green proc: 47% chance green during 1st 4, and 52% chance green during 1st 5. If delay and IQ 1st, u gamble on possibility of getting green manip, but also likely burning 7cp on obs to climb to 15d (if spamming prudent) / 20d (if need another ven-RS window). This gamble doesn't seem worthwhile bc ~5.8cp saved on average, with certainty of needing 7cp on obs to make effective use of subsequent procs.
safest: just manip 1st

That is, proc % rate doesn't practically play into the decision-making.
(I mention bc ppl brought up possibility of proc fishing for green)
Main reason for pick manip vs IQ is maintaining durability based on what needs to happen.

IQ 1st if already 15d and want to safeguard potential green after manip.
Manip 1st if 5-10d or 15d and prefer risk a tick for advantage of being able to use double red.

If 15d + ven still up, better to RS 1 more time, climb back from 5 rather than recast (or intensive)

This 2nd + 3rd phase are not strictly separate in that sometimes u get procs - usually the case when must re-cast ven - that should be capitalized on, but may come "out of order" relative to what you are trying to do. example:

In order to maximize cp during the final phase, use all proc as you are able!

pre-11 IQ
* white: prudent
* red: precise, unless it'll break the craft, then ToT
* green: This is where the 50d cap becomes annoying.
- manip if not running
- if 15d or below, and 2+ ticks of manip, MM
- if 3+ ticks, grudgingly manip, or prudent
- 4+ ticks, prudent
* yellow: patient on 3 or 5 ideally, but 4 or 6 if you're sick of spamming prudent
* blue if manip:
- 1st blue = prudent for the +2 dura (useful bc extra action eg. 17d -> 12d)
- 2nd blue / blue if no manip: basic

Innovation: I tend to use it at 5+ IQ in place of obs if I have enough dura/manip to get 4 thwacks out of it.
eg. manip'd at 10-15 dura, inno, dura +5, prudent x4 (safety to use a red tick on precise)

Manip: if no green procs, ride durability down to 10-15d via prudent before raw casting a 96cp manip. 15d ensures you won't lose a tick if green -> MM follows manip, and also that you can precise an immediate red safely. 10d is 1 more chance for a green before you hard commit, and can be followed up with inno or obs to get back to 15.

post-11 IQ quality + end
red: precise always if inno up, ToT if it's not, unless there is circumstance where precise will push past a threshold / the cp will not reach another rotation of focused. unbuffed precise only ~6.3k, cp will create better opportunity.
yellow: ignore unless tail end of inno and low on cp -> ht
blue: prep if both buffs up pre-obs. if 1-2 tick of inno remaining, maybe basic. largely depends on if enough cp for another qual rotation.
green: manip if no manip and healthy cp pool. remaining cp plays a big part in dealing with green. if 5-15d, and low.. 160-220 cp, MM. generally at most you'll get 2-3 dura skills off during this phase, any more and you compromise quality. if manip + 35+d + both buffs up, prep touch.

really is cp balancing game

Using same sequence as last time
GS > inno > obs > focused

before starting finisher, note # of active manip ticks and burn durability accordingly: worst case = 3 buffs, so 3 tick of manip that may overcap / be wasted if not careful. Try to plan ahead to hit 35d when reaching 11 IQ.

remaining 2 ticks of inno:
* prudent (if manip ending on even durability, to offset eg. 32, 27, 25)
* basic on blue, ht on yellow, or just obs > focused again.
if high cp, I'll often just gs + recast inno, overwriting the 4th tick if no proc.

I barely used last phase, but this time around they're incredibly important to break into the last tier reliably. On specialist, allows u 3 "free" observes to fish for red/green. Cost 15 yellow scrip each. Received about 150 from weekly collectable turnins, and had ~300 leftover from opening kupo box in P2.
I spent 25min grind 2 box of scrip items, enough for another ~800, so good result for the time.

5.8k min qual, T2 6.5k, T3 7.7k
need approx 60.25k qual to cap out with bb-gs-inno (20k at 2923 base ctrl)
good proc boosts bb-gs-inno to ~31.3k, cutoff just over 51k for max qual w/ proc

Disclaimer? cp efficiency only goes so far. I find this system to work, but that said, procs + rng play a large part, which brings me to gambling on Patient to create opportunities. It's a worthwhile gamble on yellow but whether it's via Patient or via proc luck (or rage spamming patient back to back on white in true tato spirit until it hits 11 or breaks), some sort of abnormality feels required to hit max qual. Can prudent your way to 6k np but it's a real feels bad when there's no cp for qual + no red proc at the end of a fishing expedition. Which lead to:

Aggressive version
I'm a bit mixed on whether to recommend this, bc sacrifice more, but the throughput is quite fast. On avg, my pt/craft has risen to 1.1k - but when it fail, which inevitable, there is little recovery, and it will occur mid-craft (in addition to the usual RS failure) so there is a bit more delay associated in that respect. Overall, result more max qual craft, very little T2, so I think worthwhile tradeoff due to T3 scaling. T1 should not occur bc finishing craft with that little cp mean poor judgement exercised in continuing when should have sac'd. Green mat also rising in price, becoming costly.

P2 pre-2nd RS
* instead of aim 15d, aim 20d risking loss of 1 tick manip, to allow for use of 2x proc in a row.

P3 building stacks:
* precise only if 1-4 iq, if 5/6, ToT for cp
* yellow: patient at 3/5/6
* white: patient at 5/6 (prioritize 5)
- when fail to 3, check proc, patient if yellow, aim 5 if white
- when fail to 2: prudent/basic to 3
- if nearing cp cutoff (~325 if no manip, ~250 if manip/dura near full) just slam on 3/5/6 regardless of colour bc likely sac'd anyways
- sac craft if cp / dura combo too low, don't wait to try proc luck, simply reset. this numbers game, must go fast. Instead of getting caught up in feeling poorly bc bad luck, simply reset.

P4 same, but more cp to play with, so quality much better, more consistent T3

rare result, 9/pot; usually 7-8
4 pot worth (~65min)

Comments (8)

Elsie Rocksmith

Moogle (Chaos)

Personally, I've been having good results with Reflect rotation on 2693 (specialist control BiS) by being flexible and doing either:
Ven RS X3, Focused Synthesis by saving 12 CP for it
Ven RS X2, RS X2 whenever late I got centered/sturdy/normal with no innovation up, (second one with FA), basic
basically I stop casting Veneration after I get 2 RS under it, but if I manage to get a third one under it, Focused Synthesis can finish the job from there, as long as you manage the 12 CP in your calcs.

Elsie Rocksmith

Moogle (Chaos)

With 3 IQ stats to begin with, jumping to 6 with Patient or 5 with Precise is possible, and at that point doubling with Patient is REALLY good and should be definitely attempted imo, even fails are much more salvageable than a MM rotation failing to RS, I think. The GS>Inno>Reflect>Focused combo here helped me a lot, and I thank you for the idea. You also get a lot of changes for a good to switch to Precise with it for massive gains (and towards the end, to a 30k+ Byregot). Going to 8240 a lot.

Arche Koeln

Sargatanas (Aether)

interesting :o
I rly enjoyed playing reflect last phase, the initial patient so juicy.
atm I'm focusing on patient so much I feel like my rotation is better suited to reflect, but 2 buffed RS is hard to give up on. It's definitely on my list of things to play around with this week.

MMem failure RS can be salvaged (sometimes I try, if lucky with green proc), requires ven-rs-rs, 1 unbuffed rs, to reach 10.6k safety.

Elsie Rocksmith

Moogle (Chaos)

Yeah but I've been consistently been getting over 80Ks with Reflect although I just got one where I failed 10 RS before getting a second RS in (but let's be honest that's not on reflect). Spending a little longer on initial progress is actually good for fishing for centereds for patient while at 3/5 stack and I feel that helps a lot since at that point you can start popping innovation without spending CP on unbuffed, low stacks touch actions.

Arche Koeln

Sargatanas (Aether)

yaa, that's def a weakness of mmem; the first 4-5 iq are worthless.

I've been trying a strat where I just aggressively patient at 3/5/6 regardless of proc and it's working so well when I feel like it shouldn't. when it fails I just hit it again / prudent back to 3 + hit it. Ending up at 11 with 450+ cp is filthy. idk if it's recommendable bc I sac at least 1/4 of them, but there's a certain satisfaction in just spamming it until it works like a proper smooth brain. I'll try reflect w it tmrw :v

Elsie Rocksmith

Moogle (Chaos)

Yeah basically it's what I'm doing except I'm trying to use the centereds, if they fail I just go all in and double down.
Regarding Ven RSX3 and Focused Synthesis, using a Delicate Synthesis instead of a Basic Touch and finishing with Basic Synthesis might also be an idea, however it's only really better if you have a Pliant and nothing better to do than a Basic Touch, otherwise you're using 14 CP instead of 12

Cecily Reeve

Mateus (Crystal)

ty for this write up! it helps to see someone put into words things I was feeling out intuitively

Kuro Moon

Faerie (Aether)

thank you so much for this post, this is helping me huge. i cant wait to try these when i get home. I was ebing a super pleb and relying on Hasty touch too much ;_;
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